French pneumatic mortars in WWI
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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Following this thread, I've done some more research and it seems pneumatic mortars were actually quite commonplace in the trenches of WWI. There are quite a few listed here, the description is in French but google translate gives a good idea of the workings.
50 mm Pneumatic mortar Dormoy-Chateau: the mechanism appears to be a cap over the muzzle which allows the barrel to be pressurised, and the device is then fired by disengaging the sear holding the cap in place.
60 mm Pneumatic mortar Brandt: A coaxial pneumatic with an exaust valve that is actuated with a cam on a lever as opposed to a pneumatic pilot.
86 mm pneumatic mortar Boileau-Debladis: fired at a predetermined pressure using a pop-off valve to fire the projectile directly.
120 mm pneumatic mortar Brandt-Lhuillier: No indication of how this works but construction appears to be similar to the "valveless" luftminenwerfer designs.
These designs are new to me but I don't claim to have rediscovered them for the spudding community as it turns out they also appear on the French spudgun forum - with such a pedigree it's no surprise they come up with some great launchers
50 mm Pneumatic mortar Dormoy-Chateau: the mechanism appears to be a cap over the muzzle which allows the barrel to be pressurised, and the device is then fired by disengaging the sear holding the cap in place.
60 mm Pneumatic mortar Brandt: A coaxial pneumatic with an exaust valve that is actuated with a cam on a lever as opposed to a pneumatic pilot.
86 mm pneumatic mortar Boileau-Debladis: fired at a predetermined pressure using a pop-off valve to fire the projectile directly.
120 mm pneumatic mortar Brandt-Lhuillier: No indication of how this works but construction appears to be similar to the "valveless" luftminenwerfer designs.
These designs are new to me but I don't claim to have rediscovered them for the spudding community as it turns out they also appear on the French spudgun forum - with such a pedigree it's no surprise they come up with some great launchers
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- 60mm brandt mortar.jpg (21.25 KiB) Viewed 22224 times
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- 50 mm Pneumatic mortar Dormoy-Chateau.jpg (32.75 KiB) Viewed 22224 times
Last edited by jackssmirkingrevenge on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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It's certainly the one that looks most like a spudgun
The 50mm one reminds me of this design.
I think it's fascinating that in an age when solid propellant artillery was well developed and desensitised explosives could be fired from conventional guns (removing the need for weapons like the Zalinski Dynamite Gun), these devices were still considered to be viable weapons.
The static nature of trench warfare must have made the relative bulk of a pneumatic setup less of an issue, and the shot is of course both flashless and smokeless, so it is less likely to betray the position of the mortar. Still, I don't suppose it was noiseless - over 500 psi from a "valveless" pneumatic with a 5 inch bore must have made an impressive bang!
The 50mm one reminds me of this design.
I think it's fascinating that in an age when solid propellant artillery was well developed and desensitised explosives could be fired from conventional guns (removing the need for weapons like the Zalinski Dynamite Gun), these devices were still considered to be viable weapons.
The static nature of trench warfare must have made the relative bulk of a pneumatic setup less of an issue, and the shot is of course both flashless and smokeless, so it is less likely to betray the position of the mortar. Still, I don't suppose it was noiseless - over 500 psi from a "valveless" pneumatic with a 5 inch bore must have made an impressive bang!
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
Interesting I missed the 1st tread also.
The link from the French forum claim that they were massively used during the trenches war.
But I am not sure they were so common on the field; I have a big French book from 1923 named "Les Canons de la Victoire" (The Victory Cannons) full of drawings and descriptions for common guns and mortars, both heavy and light, and after a quick look I couldn't find a single mortar listed that operate with air pressure.
Now I need to explore all those interesting links
BTW guys is you need some help for French translation, don't hesitate to ask me, I'll be glad to help.
The link from the French forum claim that they were massively used during the trenches war.
But I am not sure they were so common on the field; I have a big French book from 1923 named "Les Canons de la Victoire" (The Victory Cannons) full of drawings and descriptions for common guns and mortars, both heavy and light, and after a quick look I couldn't find a single mortar listed that operate with air pressure.
Now I need to explore all those interesting links
BTW guys is you need some help for French translation, don't hesitate to ask me, I'll be glad to help.
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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Sounds like an interesting item, is it original?LeMaudit wrote:I have a big French book from 1923 named "Les Canons de la Victoire" (The Victory Cannons) full of drawings and descriptions for common guns and mortars, both heavy and light, and after a quick look I couldn't find a single mortar listed that operate with air pressure.
Just one thing, is my interpretation of how the mortars work accurate?If you need some help for French translation, don't hesitate to ask me, I'll be glad to help.
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
Yes it's an original book. Lots of detailed drawings in it Love that!! 8)
I don't see any indication that the Brandt 60mm is a coaxial... it's a CO2 gun
The web site is supposed to have English translation, but it doesn't seem to be available for those mortars.
Interesting subject, I'll grab what I can find here and there, and make an English translation from the various French description.
I don't see any indication that the Brandt 60mm is a coaxial... it's a CO2 gun
The web site is supposed to have English translation, but it doesn't seem to be available for those mortars.
Interesting subject, I'll grab what I can find here and there, and make an English translation from the various French description.
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@MrCrowley
Lol I agree
Picture 60mm brandt mortar.jpg should have a caption >>
Spudgun moth########! Do you has it ?!?
@JSR
Something tells me that you want a full scale large bore pneumatic... yeah I know you live in a densely populated area....
Don't you have a jeep ?
It would look cool with a 120 mm pneumatic mortar Brandt-Lhuillier mounted on the roof
Lol I agree
Picture 60mm brandt mortar.jpg should have a caption >>
Spudgun moth########! Do you has it ?!?
@JSR
Something tells me that you want a full scale large bore pneumatic... yeah I know you live in a densely populated area....
Don't you have a jeep ?
It would look cool with a 120 mm pneumatic mortar Brandt-Lhuillier mounted on the roof
Children are the future
unless we stop them now
unless we stop them now
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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Very nice, was it purchased or inherited?LeMaudit wrote:Yes it's an original book. Lots of detailed drawings in it Love that!! 8)
How about the diagramI don't see any indication that the Brandt 60mm is a coaxial
POLAND_SPUD wrote:Something tells me that you want a full scale large bore pneumatic...
I don't think I could go back to pneumatics after going hybrid, if only in terms of power.
Actually, that complaint indicates a lack of imagination - a big bore like this could easily reduce population densityyeah I know you live in a densely populated area...
Yes, yes I do.Don't you have a jeep ?
Yes, yes it wouldIt would look cool with a 120 mm pneumatic mortar Brandt-Lhuillier mounted on the roof
Last edited by jackssmirkingrevenge on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
I swapped it for my French Army medaljackssmirkingrevenge wrote: Very nice, was it purchased or inherited?
Embarrassing...jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:How about the diagramI don't see any indication that the Brandt 60mm is a coaxial
I'm working on the translations You'll do the proof-reading
Do not like the 50mm mortar.
You'd have to dump a barrel of compressed air just to fire the projectile.
You'd have to dump a barrel of compressed air just to fire the projectile.
Although the inefficiency of the first design is quite obvious, it seems to have some potential, it certainly seems to be simple enough and the performance would be reasonable.
The second certainly needs a caption, though it's the most "conventional", if I'm not very much mistaken, JSR made something of that ilk. A mechanically piloted coax that is.
The second certainly needs a caption, though it's the most "conventional", if I'm not very much mistaken, JSR made something of that ilk. A mechanically piloted coax that is.
/sarcasm, /hyperbole
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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You mean this one? Same concept but I dare say the mortar is slightly better engineered Edgar Brandt was quite a guy by the way, it was his efforts that allowed the British to perfect the APDS shell in WW2.Zeus wrote:The second certainly needs a caption, though it's the most "conventional", if I'm not very much mistaken, JSR made something of that ilk. A mechanically piloted coax that is.
This is whatthis basic diagram of the device suggests. I remember a Junkyard Wars episode where they made a bowling ball cannon with a burst disk at the muzzle *cringe*Hotwired wrote:Do not like the 50mm mortar.
You'd have to dump a barrel of compressed air just to fire the projectile.
Here's how I would make it, much more efficient and the hollow tail also provides stability:
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hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
- MrCrowley
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Just read that other thread...
Lobbing a 4.5kg projectile over a kilometre with 35 bar is certainly impressive performance...
How the hell did they lob a 4.5kg projectile that far with only 35 bar???
Lobbing a 4.5kg projectile over a kilometre with 35 bar is certainly impressive performance...
How the hell did they lob a 4.5kg projectile that far with only 35 bar???
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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- no valve ∴ zero "opening time" and no restrictions - instantaneous maximum flowMrCrowley wrote:How the hell did they lob a 4.5kg projectile that far with only 35 bar???
- the projectile is not a potato or tennis ball, but a reasonably streamlined shell with high sectional density ∴ velocity is lost at a much lower rate
- "only 35 bar" acting on a 12cm projectile is a force of (literally lol, I got 9021) just OVER 9000 POUNDS!!!!
It wasn't exactly a record breaker either, here are the specs for the 20cm Luftminenwerfer:
Austro-Hungarian Mortars in WW1 wrote:The 3 meter long barrel was fixed at a elevation of 45 degrees. During the time the bulbous air chamber was filled with pressurized air, the projectile was held in place using a sort of clutch, which was released when the pressure was correct (max 55 atmospheres) and the aiming was done. Then the projectile (22.6 or 34.4 kilos) was forced out, reaching a maximum range of some 1,460 meters.
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life